Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Eddie Pate, IDE Practitioner, Author, Speaker, Consultant and Board Member, Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion (ISDI)

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In this thought-provoking episode of podcasts by Dr. Kirk Adams, Dr. Adams sits down with Eddie Pate, longtime IDE practitioner, author, speaker, consultant, and fellow ISDI board member, to trace Eddie’s journey from Army brat and All-American Humboldt State football player to senior inclusion, diversity, and equity roles at Microsoft, Avanade, and Amazon, where he ultimately led IDE strategy for a one-million-person worldwide operations organization. Eddie explains why he intentionally leads with the “I” in IDE, framing inclusion as the true engine of sustainable change, and he unpacks his signature “pebbles and ripples” philosophy: small, intentional, daily inclusive behaviors, interrupting the interruption of a woman in a meeting, being deliberate about who sits on an interview loop, expanding “who’s in your kitchen,” and “spending your privilege” to create visibility for others, that compound into lasting cultural and systemic change.

From there, Eddie previews his book, Daily Practices of Inclusive Leaders: A Guide to Building a Culture of Belonging, walking through his 2IL model of inclusive leadership and the book’s structure around the full employee life cycle. Dr. Adams shares a personal “spend your privilege” story involving his daughter and a car purchase, and the two turn candidly to the current climate for IDE work. Acknowledging the real harassment practitioners are facing, Eddie voices renewed hope grounded in collective resistive action, peaceful protest, local community engagement, and, above all, voting in November. The episode closes with a teaser for a follow-up conversation on power, privilege, meritocracy, and intersectionality, plus details on how to reach Eddie and order the book at https://inclusivepebbles.com.

TRANSCRIPT:

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Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you’re passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you’re in the right place. Let’s dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody to another episode of podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am that Doctor Kirk Adams talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today, I have the pleasure of introducing you all to Eddie Pate, who is a long time practitioner of. I’d. And e some of us say DEI. So I will ask Eddie to talk about why he prefers I’d and e as a title of his work. He’s a longtime practitioner and author. We met when I joined the board of the Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion here in Seattle. And Eddie is a board member. And Eddie, say, say hello, and I’ll be back to you shortly.

Eddie Pate: That was great. Hey, Doctor Kirk and audience it’s it is wonderful to be here. I can’t wait to have our conversation.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Great, great. And for those who of you who don’t know me. I am currently the managing director of my consulting practice, which is Innovative Impact LLC. And I’m also privileged to be in the role of executive director of the Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion. We’ll talk about that a little bit more. I’m the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind, Helen Keller’s organization. Prior to that, I had again the honor of leading the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle, where we employed 250 blind and deaf blind people in a variety of interesting businesses, including aerospace manufacturing. My, my, my doctor comes by the way of a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University. And my, my dissertation is called Journeys Through Rough Country, an ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. And I know, Eddie, you do you do quite a bit of work in that corporate America space. So I bet we’ll talk. I bet we’ll talk a little bit about that. But really just wanted to invite you into a conversation. That was great to hear about your journey. Where, say where you’ve been. Where are you at? Where are you going? What’s working for you? What are some challenges you’re seeing? And we would really like to hand hand the talking stick to you.

Eddie Pate: Well that sounds great. Thank you. You know what? I’ll. I’ll start with kind of my journey and where I’ve gotten where I’ve gotten is a lot because of where I’ve been. And I think that’s probably what you’re getting at as well when you’re asking this question. So I’m an Army brat and I’ll start there. My dad was in the Army for 22 years. I was born in Frankfurt, Germany. My mom met my dad when she was over there. She’s died young. But she met my dad when she was working in Fischbach, Germany, where she was born. And my dad was a soldier, my mom was German, and they met. And the next thing you know, they’re married. They have three kids. And the whole spiel after moving back to the United States. I was born in Frankfurt, Germany. We moved back. We moved all over the place. I think part of my kind of passion and understanding and love for difference and unique experiences and moments that matter has to do with me being an army brat, a military brat, traveling everywhere. So if you fast forward a bit, my dad retired in 1980 and and moved up to the Bay area and lives in Union City, which is in East Bay. And because of that, I ended up going to the Humboldt State University where Kirk, you’ll you’ll laugh at this, but I think you might know this about me, I studied wildlife management.

Eddie Pate: Yeah, I, I really thought I was going to be a field wildlife biologist. But at the same time that I was getting my degree in wildlife management, I played football at Humboldt. And when I first went to college because I was only 17 when I went, I just turned 17 and started college. I was I hadn’t hit a growth spurt. I was six feet tall, £160. You know, showed up to, to play football at Humboldt. And within the first year I gained three inches in 40 to £45. And so I ended up having some real good success as a football player. I was an All-American a couple times all West Coast receiver, all this kind of stuff. So what that ended up doing was leading me into what I had hoped to be a long NFL career, but unfortunately two ACL tears back in the late 80s. Ended that. So where I was in the Chargers camp, San Diego Chargers back in the late 80s, torn ACL. Ended up having a negotiated separation. Got surgery, spent a few years trying to hook up with a number of teams and then finally realized that my medical history was just an anchor on me, so I hung up my cleats. And then I started down the path of management and leadership kind of roles. And I started back at Humboldt, actually as the assistant director of admissions and school relations. And and from there I was, I was married at that time and we were living in Humboldt where I was working.

Eddie Pate: My wife Val was working. We had a little girl and, and when she was six months old, we had both finished our undergraduate degrees and a master’s degree. My master’s degree was in sociology, comparative race and ethnic relations and social psych, and my wife was in social geography. So we meshed really well. Right. And we and we had a major professor say to us all right, you two need to go get PhDs and doctors doctorates and teach. And so Val and I left Humboldt, which is in very Northern California, and we went to the University of Washington here in Seattle, and that was back in 1993. Doctor Kirk So I’m, I’m aging myself in a big way. And so started the doctoral program in 93. We had a second kid in 98 Arthur. So we have one daughter and one son. And and then I finished my PhD in 2000 and my PhD was in sociology as well and was comparative race and ethnic relations and social psychology. So and then I was, it was at that point, I wasn’t sure if I was going to go down the path of academics and academia and be a professor, or if I was going to go into the corporate space and you know, the path ended up pointing and I’ll leave the history of why I decided not to go into academia unless you want to, you know, want me to elaborate on that further? But I decided to go the path of the corporate space.

Eddie Pate: And I ended up meeting an incredible woman, Laverne, LaVonne, Dorsey, and LaVonne introduced me to who was the head of at that time, diversity, because that didn’t say Dei or. Yeah, inclusion, diversity back then. It was just diversity at at Microsoft. And his name was Santiago Rodriguez and Santiago was incredible. And Santiago and I clicked and he knew of a role, in at Microsoft, but not in the HR within the HR function, but within the line of business. And that was really important because my first taste of I’d and E work inclusion, diversity and equity work was in a line business where I reported directly to the senior leader of a, of a group called the Enterprise and Partner Group. And that was Microsoft’s. And I think it is still today. That was that was Microsoft’s primary sales arm for not only the United States, but global. So here I was in a situation where you had to be, you know, culturally competent and understanding global differences in norms and cultures. And my job was to make sure that people understood I’d and E or diversity back then, as we said, principles and, and and dynamics. And so it was a great starting point for me. And then I’ll speed up. And so then.

Dr. Kirk Adams: No, that’s fine, but I’d love to. Let’s, let’s pause here and talk about why. Why you prefer I’d and d as a as a descriptor of the what you practice.

Eddie Pate: Absolutely. So look, I said d e and I for several years and it just started dawning on me that while I think diversity as, as, as, as you think about diversity, equity and inclusion, so diversity being the differences that people bring to the table, it’s who you are, right? It’s your background, your experiences, all those things which make up your diversity. But what I was, what I really wanted to emphasize and show was the power of really thinking about inclusion as the true mechanism for having and making change. And so and by putting I, the, I first and I’d and e and then diversity second and wrapping it up with equity. I was emphasizing the inclusion piece. It’s not that the diversity piece wasn’t important, but I, I used to talk and tell people, you know, diversity is about, you know, the diversity part is about, I don’t know, 30%, right? 60% of what we should be doing is inclusion and inclusive activities and behaviors to make people who you bring into your organization feel like they belong to feel comfortable, to have a say. And so the inclusion piece and putting the I first just emphasized that point. And then the equity piece wrapped it up and, and, you know, made this just this wonderful, you know, perspective of thinking about how do we do this work? It’s not the, it’s not the strategy of bringing people in that we should be focused on. We’ll do that. But it’s how do we make them feel included? And how do we literally look at whether we are achieving an equitable outcome with our goals and our strategies? And that’s why I lean towards I’d and E and, and gotten many people over the years to convert to that perspective as well.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I, I, I like it. No, I I’m against exclusion. I’m for inclusion. So I like, I like having that up front.

Eddie Pate: Put it, put it first.

Eddie Pate: My friend put.

Eddie Pate: It first. Yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So just a quick question. So Lavon Dorsey is a name that really rings a bell with me. And what, what what was Lavon’s role when you were connected?

Eddie Pate: Lavon was in in Microsoft, and she was not she wasn’t a recruiter, but she was a, a, a leader within the HR function. And, and I ended up meeting Lavon and she was a great connector for me in getting me to meet people at Microsoft. And we just hit it off when we met. And she wanted to make sure that I was connected in. And then again, Santiago Rodriguez, who we referred to as the Pied Piper of diversity back then.

Eddie Pate: Incredible.

Eddie Pate: We followed him everywhere.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I want to give a little shout out to my friends over across the lake in Redmond, Washington, at Microsoft. So when I was at the lighthouse for the blind here I walked into an organization that had a relationship with Microsoft already, and a gentleman named Howie Dickerman, who became a board member, was in charge of one of the work groups developing Excel. And he thought to himself, you know, I think blind people will probably want to use this. And I don’t know anything about how to make it accessible for them. So we got up the phone book and looked up blind and found the lighthouse for the blind and drove over and introduced himself and you know, set up a user testing and getting input. So my Microsoft has really done some things around I’d and e that I think are exceptional. And you know, they have Several hundreds of of blind individuals on working, working at Microsoft. And they’re not they’re not just in accessibility roles or ID and roles. They are coders and programmers and managers and marketing people and HR people. And they.

Eddie Pate: As it should be.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes. So they’ve they’ve included people with a wide variety of disabilities throughout their organization. And they’re a shining example. So I just want to point that out.

Eddie Pate: And I.

Eddie Pate: Love that. And one of the things that I like about Microsoft back then too, is, you know, as you bring different people onto, onto your teams, you know, there was an, there was an assessment that was made. And if you needed any accommodation, there was actually a part, an organization within Microsoft. And I’m assuming and hoping it’s still intact where you would just go and you have a chance to you know, sample and see the type of assistive technologies that you may need and use them. So it was a central function for managers and hiring managers to come in and do this. And I thought that was I thought that was incredible. And part of the diversity team work that we did. I started out in PG, but within a year and a half, they pulled me into the the broader function and I was promoted and I had global role then for the diversity team. And part of what we did is we had one. We had one person on our team who was responsible for us working with people with disabilities and accommodations and assistive technology, and making sure that we worked in people with disabilities into our strategic approach to what diversity is. And it wasn’t just about black people and women, as we used to say, right?

Eddie Pate: It’s just like not just.

Eddie Pate: About race and gender, right? It has to.

Eddie Pate: Do.

Eddie Pate: With veterans, you know, status. It has to do with even size, right? It has to do with, you know, and with people with disabilities and veterans and, and, you know, and, and LGBTQ. So we, we really made sure that we had a part, you know with, with people with disabilities and, and, you know, assistive technology, it was, it was a great way to start my career, I think.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Then what next?

Eddie Pate: So after Microsoft, I, I ended up being head hunted out and I moved to Starbucks and I was at Starbucks just a couple of years. And I have to say, and it’s, it’s no, it’s, it really isn’t a knock on Starbucks, but it just wasn’t what I was looking for. I found it to, it was it took too long to get things done. You had to have meetings to have meetings to decide who’s going to have a meeting and then move in that kind of thing. And, and after being at Microsoft, the pace of work is so much faster that it really was grating to have it just be so kind of slowed down and bogged down. So I actually left Starbucks and started my own consulting company, which I had for three years. Back then I did consulting for three years and was getting my feet wet, learning what it means to be a speaker and a consultant. And then I had held off a company called Avanade several times throughout those three years saying, no, you know, I’m not interested in jumping back into the corporate space, but at one point I, you know, they came to me and said, look, we really want you to come join this company and help us design and move globally and inclusion, diversity and equity strategy.

Eddie Pate: And so I ended up joining Avanade and I was the vice president of inclusion, diversity and equity for them for five years. It was an incredible role because it really was Avanade is very much a global company, and so I had opportunities to travel abroad and really think about the, you know, I’d and e from a, from a global lens. And then after Avanade, I was headhunted out to Amazon, where I was the director of inclusion, diversity and equity for worldwide operations. And it was one of the groups at Amazon where, and you’ll know the group because it’s the one that has all the fulfillment centers, distribution centers, the airplanes, the minute you are, you know, any family member hits, you know you know buy and the product is sent to you. That’s worldwide operations. So and, you know, I joke with people all the time, Doctor Kirk that you know, it’s this tiny organization that I was responsible for. I had 18 people on my team at the largest and we were responsible for 1 million people.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay.

Eddie Pate: So it was incredible. So, but it was again, it was a, it was a really important experience for me because it had not only could I build on all the past experiences that I had, especially the Avanade one and the global nature of it at that point. But you know, it’s, it’s, you know, it had such a global feel. I had, you know, I had multiple trips to India, to Singapore, to throughout Europe and just had a real strong responsibility of driving inclusion, diversity and equity across a broad network of individuals, different cultures, different backgrounds. And, and when you have that, you have to figure out how to make it work and how do you scale? And that’s, that was a lot of my job is to help figure out how do we scale to a million people? Yeah. So it was, it.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Was my my mind boggling. For me. I mean, I, I managed an organization with 400 people, but a million, a million and scaling and communicating and getting shared language and shared values established seems monumental, but I’m sure very rewarding.

Eddie Pate: It was rewarding. So that’s the that’s my that’s kind of my corporate career. And then I retired in 2020, which you know what, I can’t believe it’s it’s been 5 or 6 years since I’ve retired from corporate. It’s crazy. And but now I, I I, and one month after I retired, I knew I just wasn’t, I didn’t want to not do something. I wanted to keep my mind fresh. I wanted to make sure that I was finding those moments that matter and having an impact. And so I started educate speaking and consulting, and I’ve been doing consulting work and speaking keynotes, workshops. And as you mentioned earlier I wrote a book with someone who used to work for me at Amazon.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Well, you know, I love and if you want to frame this any way you want, but certainly I’m sure you, you reflected upon some of these things in your book, and you do so in your speaking. But what are some of the key elements that people should keep in mind when they’re really trying to create that culture, that inclusive culture in organizations? What are some either must must do’s or please don’t do’s and, and, and maybe a couple of, of examples of good successes of people moving toward a more robust corporate culture around inclusion. And then you know, on a, on, on a little more somber note would love to get your thoughts on the current environment. Right. And some of the not full frontal assaults that practitioners such, such as yourself are living with.

Eddie Pate: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, there are a number of things that I think people need to do to actually be impactful with I’d and e and this kind of work I have for years, I have heard people, you know, I’ve had leaders come up to me. Executives say, okay, Eddie, give me 2 or 3 things that I can do right now that just will move the needle. And in the back of my mind, I always go through my mind. I would say oh boy, you, you, you need a lot of help because there’s, there’s no one or 2 or 3 big things that anyone can do, in my opinion, that will actually have a sustainable impact and change for an organization in terms of wanting to become more inclusive or more equitable, or, you know, a company that integrates people from all over the planet in a way that’s truly effective. I really believe, and this is a kind of a philosophy and an approach that I’ve developed over the years. If you really want to have an impact, you need to think about what are those daily practices that you could do that are inclusive and creates belonging. And and, and, and actually, this is one of those elements that is not overwhelming to do. You know, over the years, you realize, I’ve realized that everyone’s so busy in the corporate space. And if you give them a big old project to do and, and they can’t remove other pieces from their plates, how do they make room on their in their busy lives at work to do it? They don’t or they don’t do anything well, and they try to incorporate what you’re talking about and they piecemeal it or do this.

Eddie Pate: But I have found if you give them a daily practice that they can do. Right. You, you teach them what you know, intentionality is all about. If you, if you, you know, have them understand who’s in their kitchen, right? As, as a, as a particular pebble that has an impact. If you and I can explain what all these are in a moment, but giving you broader context. So it is a matter of teaching people to do daily, inclusive, practical things that over time lead to systemic and cultural change. And let me let me give you an example of this. And then I can touch on some other pebbles and some other kind of guiding principles that I think are important for people to implement for I.d.e.a. To work. So one of the examples I often give and, and, and I’ll set the context. The other, the other piece of context before I give you the example, is this whole notion of and dropping a pebble which causes a ripple. And so if you drop a pebble that causes a ripple, those ripples cause someone else to drop a pebble, which causes a ripple.

Eddie Pate: And those ripples cause someone else to drop a pebble, which causes a ripple. And those pebbles are those small, inclusive activities or behaviors or actions that lead to systemic change. And my, my argument is that’s ultimately what leads to us, to the change that we’re looking for. And here’s an example. So you’re sitting in a, you’re sitting in a meeting and, and we all, and especially the women who are listening to us or will listen to us in this. It will understand this example and appreciate it. Women are cut off 7 to 10 times more often than men are right in conversation. And so if you’re sitting around a table in there and you’re having this heated discussion, there’s tense discussion and you’re trying to get everyone’s input and let’s say Curt, you know, you know, Doctor Kirk, you, you cut off Barbara and you speak over her. And then in that very moment, if I drop a pebble by saying, hey, Doctor Kirk, why don’t you hold off for a second? I want to hear what you have to say. But you you interrupted Barbara, and I really find what she says is super valuable. We’ll get right back to you, but I want to make sure we. She has a chance to finish her thought, and then we’ll get back to you. And so I dropped the pebble that causes a ripple. And so let’s say the next meeting, you go to this next meeting and you witness the same thing where someone else cuts a woman off.

Eddie Pate: And now that you’ve had this experience and you understand this, you might say, hey, hold on a second. Let me hear from her first, and then we’re going to do this. And this is how people who keep dropping pebbles in ripples. So that’s one little example. And if you think about a meeting of eight people, if eight people go to their next meetings and then you have, you know, it just extrapolates and gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and before long, it becomes part of the the culture of an organization to not speak over people and understand the dynamic of what we’re doing. And in fact, I’ve done this very thing where I’ve said to make it a learning moment for people. I’ll say, hey, Doctor Kirk, I, you know, I really want to hear what you say. But, you know, unfortunately, women are often spoken over way more often than men. So I just want to hold this off. Let’s hear from her. And then I want to get your perspective. But in that moment, I also, not only did I allow or make it possible for her to speak, I made it a learning lesson for you. And so that’s how this works. And there are just obviously hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of examples of what I just gave that.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Shows the value.

Eddie Pate: Of inclusive pebbles.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And I assume the book has some some additional examples of pebbles that might, might, might be commonly picked up. Yes.

Eddie Pate: And dropped in the water. Exactly.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And.

Eddie Pate: You know, I mentioned a few of them, like teaching people to be intentional. Right. Is this pebble that. So in situations where, you know, you have a true gap and this is one of those ways that you can have an impact, right? Let’s say you have a gap on your team where you know, an HR functions, for example, usually about seven out of ten people in HR are women. Yeah. And that tends to be the data, right. But but that’s for the lower levels of an organization. Suddenly when you get to director VP, you know, CHRO those numbers flip. Right. And so all of a sudden you have more men percentage wise in a lot of companies than women. So these organizations are led by men when the majority of the people in the organization are women. So intentionality would mean that we need to, the next time that we hire or we promote, or we think about who’s going to join the ranks of director, VP and, and make up part of that leadership team. We should be very intentional in our efforts to make sure that we have women on the interview loop. We are. And if we. And so if it’s not a if it’s a company like Costco, for example, that likes to promote from within, then what you do is if, if you have senior managers are the ones that ultimately get promoted to be directors and then become part of that executive team.

Eddie Pate: So at that, at that senior manager level, are you intentionally having development programs for women? Are you making sure that they have visibility to senior leaders and maybe having a mentor mentee relationship with senior executives on the on the leadership team. Right. With those high performing women. So in other words, you want to be intentional in how you approach these problems. And, you know, and when you get the pushback from some people saying, but isn’t that reverse discrimination? Or are you, you know, and you just you just say, look, there’s not reverse discrimination for one that doesn’t exist. And the other piece is look at if we’ve allowed this dynamic to go unchecked and who keeps getting promoted and who keeps doing this are men. Because there’s some biases, obviously maybe unintentional built into the process. So let’s be intentional. Let’s address that gap and then and make sure that we are giving women the equal opportunity and equity, you know, equitable opportunity to successfully compete for these jobs. So that’s what I mean by intentionality. So it’s a small tweak in how you think. And then I’ll give you one other example.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Eddie Pate: That is a little, you know, easier to think about. I like the phrase who’s in your kitchen? And we talk about it in our book. And actually it’s got an interesting story. It is an expression that Doctor Martin Luther King coined and used back in the civil rights days. So he realized he needed to recognize who’s in his kitchen, advising him and talking to him and helping him. Because who we invite into our kitchen are those people who we value, we feel comfortable with the ones that we are closest to are the ones in our kitchen. But unfortunately, we don’t always have the right people in our kitchen to help advise us. And he recognized that he needed other voices that weren’t just saying yes to him or agreed with him. So he needed other voices. So we teach people a simple pebble that you could drop that causes a ripple is how do you expand who your network is? How do you expand who’s in your kitchen? And then not only how you expand who’s kind of part of your permanent advisory group or who’s in your kitchen. But how do you recognize in certain strategic decisions you have to make or problems you have to solve? Who you add temporarily to your kitchen to make sure you have a different voice. So it’s just a technique for someone who’s starting out to try to solve a problem, to say, okay, who’s in my kitchen that I would normally use for this? Who should I be adding? It’s an easy thing to do and it doesn’t take it’s not this prolonged three month activity. It could be something you can do in an hour and think about, man, you know what? I’m going to tap into Doctor Kirk because we definitely need some assistive technology and we need to be thinking about people with disabilities. So I’m going to make sure the doctor cooks in my kitchen for this discussion. Does that make sense.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah it does. And so you referred to the book a couple times. So let’s let’s talk about the title and, and what, what, what’s involved in the book and what people will get out of it if they, when they finish listening to this podcast and order your book. What are you saying?

Eddie Pate: So we’ll start out with the title. So the title is Daily Practices of Inclusive Leaders A Guide to Building a Culture of Belonging. And the guide part is very specific and very intentional. You know, it’s almost like a, you know, a field guide for birds or mammals for you, you dog ear pages. And you go and reference things and you don’t have to necessarily read it from cover to cover to understand what you’re talking about. You can go straight to this piece. So we wanted to make it a guide for daily practice of inclusive leaders. And so the first half of the book, it really deals with the foundation of inclusive leadership. So we talk about, you know, why leaders are key to daily practice of inclusion. And we really tap into what’s called what we call the 2IL model of inclusive leadership. And it’s a model of inclusive leadership, right? And so I’ve had this model that I’ve developed over the years as a as an executive and leader in the indie space. And we have these pieces of this pie. And I would argue that if you want to be an inclusive leader, you need to think about cultural competence or humility. You need to understand ethnocentrism. And the part that that plays in how you interact with people. You need to definitely understand your unconscious biases and how to acknowledge that and work with that in your organization. Stereotyping we do. In my model there’s a part that talks about micro-inequities. You might like microaggressions, micro invalidations insults, those kinds of things.

Eddie Pate: And then the platinum rule is one of those pieces where, you know, you understand the golden rule is do unto others as you want done unto you. Right? Actually, we talk about shifting your thinking to the platinum rule, which is treat people how they want to be treated, not how you want to be treated. So that’s a piece of the pie. And the last piece that we talk about in my in my 2IL model, is this whole notion of what it means to be a tempered radical. And that’s a and, and, and so, and so I spend the first half, we spend the first half of the book talking about the two YL model, what leadership is all about. And then, you know, really helping people understand, you know, daily wisdom, daily courage, daily heart and structure and accountability. The first part. So that’s the first half. The second half is, as the book is designed, is based off the life cycle of an employee. So from the moment you start recruiting an employee till you recruit the employee, you bring them in, it’s you know, their introduction to the organization. You know, a, you know, we look at internal movement, we look at representation by level and, you know, and we look at how people leave the organization. So the full life cycle of the employee. We have inclusive practices in pebbles that fit every piece of that life cycle. So if you are sitting in a meeting saying, what can we do to be better about bringing more diverse talent in? You can go to the section on that.

Eddie Pate: We have that deals with with talent acquisition and recruiting and what daily practices you have or, you know, what is it that we can do as a leader overall to be more inclusive? And you can go to the guiding principles section in the, in the back of the book that talks about lead with equity as the in game, lead with intentionality, you know, humanize your stories, really, truly listen all these things that are not super hard but are super effective that you can put into place, right? Using your voice keeping it simple, you know, understanding. Here’s one for you, Doctor Kirk understanding the power of spend your privilege and, and people have, you know what I’ve said and I’ve talked about spending your privilege. People are going, okay, wait a minute. That’s a cool sounding concept. What do you mean? Yeah. And the whole notion is we all have certain privilege and, you know, you have privilege just by being a part of an organization, period, in the story. Everyone has privilege, but you have to recognize that there are other privileges that are your basic that are very basic to you. Men have certain privileges that women don’t. White people have certain privileges that people of color don’t. Right. But a black male like myself will have probably more privileges than a black woman. Right? So the difference is how do I leverage what privileges I have to create opportunities for others. So spend my privilege. So I’ll give you a perfect example of it.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Eddie Pate: What I would do is since I was always in an executive role in leader in the company, I often spoke at, you know you know, all hands events or I had opportunities to speak to leadership teams or, you know, at a company meeting or something like that. But what I did is I said, I’m going to spend my privilege. No, I, I, someone from my team will speak, but it’s not going to be me. I actually want my E to speak and have an opportunity to do this presentation, because she has aspirations of being a project manager and moving out of that executive assistant function. And so I want to create visibility for her. And I have the privilege to do that. So I spent my privilege, I enabled her to be on the stage speaking. And honestly, this is a true story from my Amazon days. And Cynthia is now a project manager at another company. But doing this, she’s no longer doing e work. And it was the start really was her opportunity to be seen and visible in a different role outside of what people expect from her. So it’s spending your privilege.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, I’m going to give you my quick spin privilege story, and it’s a family story. So we’re living in Arlington, Virginia, and the pandemic struck. Our daughter was living in New York City. She opened an office there for a Bay area startup. She fled the city. She came to stay with us in Arlington, which the pandemic soon, soon came there too. But she decided she was going to move to Los, move back to California. And she wanted to she wanted to buy a car in Virginia because it was cheaper to buy a car in Virginia and put it on a train than buy it in California and pay the taxes. Wow. Smart, smart, smart young lady. Yes. So I’m I’m married to an African American woman. I’m white, our children are biracial, and Rachel is a 20, 20 something lovely young brown woman. And she came to me and said, dad, here are the numbers of five Honda dealers, and I want you to call them and say, this is Doctor Kirk Adams. I want to buy a car, a Honda Fit. Da da da. Model number. I’m going to pay cash and I want to buy it tomorrow and see what kind of deal you can get me. So I did that. We started out at 22 something and ended up at 17, but I but I say that and I think about intersectionality. Maybe we can talk about that next time. Now, if I had walked in there with my long white cane I might have had a different result if she would have walked in there with her 24 year old young lady self, she probably would have had a different biracial self. Yeah. Right. So, so there, you know, there are I’ve experienced privilege as a white man. I’ve experienced lack of privilege as a person with a disability. So it’s just, it’s just a very interesting kind of shifting set of dynamics depending on context. And I’m sure you find that often in your work.

Eddie Pate: Absolutely. And, and really the cautionary tale for both the stories that we’ve told about is how do you do this and not center yourself? So, you know, and I think that is I think that’s a really important piece. And that’s why I love that part is you didn’t center yourself, you gave her the opportunity to do it. And it’s the same way I didn’t go up on stage and say, oh, I’m, I’m, you know, I’m going to give this opportunity to, you know, Cynthia, to speak and do this because that would be centering me. I simply create an opportunity for her to have visibility. So that’s the cautionary tale is, is do it in the right way. Create visibility for others. We’re not there to rescue anyone. I’m not there to be the great male savior or the great white hope, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. So I think your story is fabulous. I love that.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I, I, I just thought you were so smart of her to understand privilege and affluence and power dynamics.

Eddie Pate: And it’s real. It’s it is, it’s absolutely real. And we, I, we’ll have to come back on and, and, and talk about power and privilege and intersections of meritocracy and.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah, let’s do that. Let’s do that. But I do want, I know we’re coming toward the end of our time, but I, I, again, kind of addressing the realities of our current environment, any, any thoughts, reflections on how people can keep moving toward a more inclusive world and any, any bright spots you’re seeing or just any reflections you have?

Eddie Pate: Well, so yeah, I, yeah, my, my reflections on this is, and one I always like to start that acknowledging that it is truly painful. It is truly hard out there for people. And you had earlier you referenced people who do this work and what they were experiencing. I want to acknowledge that people in current ID and roles in companies are being chastised and harassed Asked and you know you know, talk down to and you know, I, I’ve even experienced this in my current consulting one of my gigs where I did a presentation. I do I do human centered leadership work too as part of what I develop and, and having someone just question, why are we talking about Dei? I thought we weren’t supposed to, right? It’s this kind of thing. So I want to acknowledge that piece first, that I understand the pain and the reality of it. Now I do have hope and, and I think if you had asked me six months ago or nine months ago, Doctor Kirk, I might not have had as much hope as I do now. Okay. And where that hope comes from, quite frankly, is the collective resistive actions of just normal human beings. Nothing was more impactful or empowering than the people in Minneapolis, the people in Minnesota, and what. For me, it showed that you can shift and block authoritarian and racist and sexist and homophobic behavior by collective action. I am, I’ve always been a believer of, of peaceful resistance and, and protest as well as being very intentional in our approaches with people who are negative.

Eddie Pate: Right. And so for me, I am more and more encouraged because of, of that groundswell of support. If you look at the no Kings days going from, you know, a million people, I think in the first set of no Kings protests. And now the last one was 8 to 10 million. And now you have people protesting in starkly red states, red districts. You have people protesting no kings in Hungary. And look what happened to Viktor Orban, right? Yeah. So so you’re seeing some movement in in a way where people are just saying, wait a minute, this doesn’t feel right. And, and like, yeah, I get, I get upset and mad about like there, you know, you, I hear interviews with people saying, oh, it’s just gone too far. What the, you know, we need to stop doing this. I know I voted for him and part of me wants to say, well, that’s part of the problem, right? Is we knew what was he was going to do. He said it constantly, right? We knew what the Trump administration was going to do, but people still voted for them. So part of my reflection is I’ll never truly understand that because it was so starkly clear what they were going to do and why people ended up supporting and voting for him. Right. Not understanding what he was going to do will always escape me. I’ll never understand that. But I do have more hope. I encourage. I encourage people to look. It’s too hard to constantly be worrying at the national level and trying to shift change up their way that way.

Eddie Pate: Right. Find ways within your own sphere of influence your own communities, your own neighborhoods, you know, your ability to like we live in shoreline, Washington, just north of Seattle, and we go to the protests. We go to organize functions, we support neighbors. I started, you know, when I first moved here, a chat group with all the neighbors all around us, we had this wonderful community that we now share articles and discussions and events that we go to. So I encourage all your listeners to find the ways that you can impact what’s right around you and be part of resistive actions that show the collective nature of what we want in this country. And then here’s the number one thing you can get everyone on, on, on your listeners and everyone to pay attention to is in November. Vote. Get everyone else around you to vote. If you have people pushing back, get them to vote. And that is. That is, you know, the best thing that anyone can do because we’re seeing this. We’re seeing massive turnouts because of resistive action. People are aware of the issues. They’re not they’re no longer being fed, you know you know you know, one bit of news because they always watch this. They’re only hearing one voice now. They’re now they’re, it’s expanding. So now use that same voice to get people to vote in November and, and move in the direction of human centered, you know.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So that’s a, that’s a dropping of a pebble in your local pond, right? When you get someone else to vote 100%.

Eddie Pate: Exactly. It causes many ripples. That’s how, that’s how change will happen, quite frankly. One voter, one individual, one person. You know, it could be as simple as is, is if you see someone or if you know someone who is an immigrant and is undocumented or something like that, they have a kind word for them. Those moments matter. That’s what we’re talking about. And in that very moment where you have a nice, you know, just say, hey, are you okay? Is everything fine? Like, you know, and it’s, it’s those moments that matter that we need to bring empathy back with. We have to be more empathetic. We have to understand the moments matter when we engage on individual actions day to day, right? We don’t have to, we don’t have to. We don’t have to solve the big problem. We just have to be nice on a daily basis, quite frankly.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So everyone be nice. Yes. So this time has flown by. I’m looking forward to next time. And we’ll talk about power and privilege and meritocracy. It’ll be another deep, rich conversation. But let’s let’s hear the title of your guide book, your how to how to Drop Those Pebbles in the Right Places book.

Eddie Pate: It is Daily Practices of Inclusive Leaders A Guide to Building a Culture of Belonging.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Thank you. I have it right here in my book. Share. There is a Braille ready file for you Braille readers out there. It’s a bookshare and you can read it and enjoy it and learn from it. And again, Eddie, how can people get in touch with you?

Eddie Pate: So multiple ways. I am an open book. So. EddiePate21@gmail.com. So. EddiePate the numbers 21@gmail.com. You can go out to my website. Just type in Eddie Pate speaking and consulting. You’ll see my website and then https://inclusivepebbles.com is where my book is. And send me an email. I will share all my contact information with you. Phone everything. Shoot me an email at EddiePate21@gmail.com. And if you want to talk, if you want to set up a time to maybe have me come in and speak to your organization or you know, just have a connected good to get to know you. Happy to do it.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Wonderful, wonderful. And for me, my, my website is https://drkirkadams.com on there. I have a newsletter sign up and I’m on LinkedIn every day. @KirkAdamsPhD on LinkedIn. And I think Eddie and I are both involved in the Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion. And we are going to launch a community coalition this summer. So we would both invite you to go to the we call it is ISDI to the ISDI website and sign up for email alerts. And that is www dot letter I numeral 4 SDI.org. And this has been a Wonderful, thought provoking episode of podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. Thank you so much, Eddie. Lovely to have you back. For everyone listening, we’ll we’ll catch you next time.

Eddie Pate: Thank you, thank you, thank you, I loved it.

Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today’s conversation. Don’t forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at https://www.drkirkadams.com. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep making an impact.

” Inclusion isn’t just the right thing to do — it’s a strategic advantage. “

Dr. Kirk Adams, Ph.D.
Advocate, Leader and Keynote Speaker on Disability Inclusion & Leadership
Leading the Way to Accessible Innovation

Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion (ISDI)
Executive Director
Strengthening individual and organizational capability for creating diverse, inclusive and equitable workplaces.

Innovative Impact, LLC Consulting
Managing Director
Impactful Workforce Inclusion Starts Here

American Foundation for the Blind
Immediate Past President & CEO
To create a world of no limits for people who are blind or visually impaired.

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Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Eddie Pate, IDE Practitioner, Author, Speaker, Consultant and Board Member, Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion (ISDI)

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Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams: Interview with Eddie Pate, IDE Practitioner, Author, Speaker, Consultant and Board Member, Institute for Sustainable Diversity and Inclusion (ISDI)

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